Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. But here may be a hint. I see alcoholism as a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no matter what a person believes. Although the church is not an official Foursquare church, it appears they are welcoming of the charismatic gifts. She can correct me if I did. And money. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Ditto. How can it possibly not be idolatry to not hold accountable leadership in the church? Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. This story cuts too close to home. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. Intriguing. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. write such a tribute about his wife and marriage? the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. What I came back to say is that just as most Christians, churches, and Christian teaching is naive and ineffectual at tackling domestic violence, alcoholism, depression, and many other issues, that secular counseling or mainstream mental health treatment does not always work, either. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Unfortunately, even preachers succumb to the flesh by straying from being led by the Spirit where flesh rules over Spirit. had to drop out of high school athletics in order to help his family . This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. :'(. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. Do they look for excuses to have the equivalent of one for the road? She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? Velour wrote: or a swindler [scams, cons] dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. I have been trying to put many old demons to rest and cancel out some of those old tapes that keep repeating. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. discoveries. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. Its very revealing. And its important to try. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him: 9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. If so, a shame he did. In most cases those sins were nothing more than they wanted to leave his church for another church. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. Since you have a background in this, would you be willing to assist me? However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. That is not what Jesus would have us do. Thank you for sharing. I have been nice to H.A. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. I do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). I have never shared this before but I just needed to. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. link. And, yes, there is more. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking. So behind the times. Shirley Ann Downey Sproul passed away November 9, 2016 in Tucson, Arizona at the age of 84. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. . I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. Purge the evil person from among you.. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. I communicated directly with one of his children and received confirmed that this quote was from one of them (and also received permission to post it here). RC Sr gave up smoking awhile back. @ Lea: Sproul Jr.s abuses of power, spiritual abuse, and excommunications and shunnings of people. Good for him. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. We will do almost anything to aid recovery, but we will not enable alcoholism. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. @ Nick Bulbeck: Oh, excellent, Nancy2. She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. A wounded (broken, messed up) spirit who can bear? not even to eat with such a one.. The street is a two-laner through Fifties-vintage tract homes, and I was eastbound somewhere between Brookhurst & Euclid when I noticed the headlights coming towards me looked WRONG. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. I hope Sproul Jr gets help, but tbh his theology preaches such a hateful God that if I had to believe it Id turn to drink too. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. Would you please forgive me? CONTENT MAY BE COPYRIGHTED BY WIKITREE COMMUNITY MEMBERS. Nobody kicked her out. What a wonderful ministry that you have had! The only thing that's likely to prevent it is more public exposure. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. There are people who are alcoholics and yes, the first drink (beer, etc.) We are obliged to do the right thing in intervening for OUR sakes as well as theirs: because we are human persons too and our day may come when we are the overwhelmed and in need of the mercy of others. I think the warning labels on alcoholic beverages are too bland. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. RC2 started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. Youre absolutely correct about the damage that these false teachings have done to so many people who will forever associate them with the church and wont step foot in a church again. And then, even *within* a denomination, my former one being PC-USA, when a pastor is fired for cause (affairs, embezzlement), he can move across the country, and in a different regional body, talk his way back into a pastoral position. Confession that his drunkenness IS sin (it sounds like that alone would be a huge step), then repentance toward God (making a U-turn and living a completely different life) AND toward others (asking forgiveness of everyone he has wronged) these would be HUGE steps for him. It was a life changing experience. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. As for whether or not other believers part company with him that situation is delineated by Christ Jesus Himself in Matthew 18. Velour, Im not going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story properly with vetted sources. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. I am not sure one can blame leukemia on a toxic waster problem with surety. Hopefully one day our judicial system will get that. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. I have been concerned for some time, like you, about her banning codependency terminology, which is helpful in describing the dynamics in many families. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. Categories: Presbyterian Church in the United States of America Ministers | Altamonte Springs, Florida | Sanford, Florida | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania | Biblical Scholars | Teachers | Authors | Broadcasters | Editors | Notables, WIKITREE HOME | ABOUT | G2G FORUM | HELP | SEARCH. 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